Jazz Hot's Open Forum

Kid Ory

Charles Delaunay: The editorial board had mixed feelings about an open forum on Kid Ory's orchestra, most of the members thought that most of the opinions had already been written in the first concert review. Many thought that Kid Ory, who's visit we had been waiting for so long, would cause a sensation similar to that made by Louis Armstrong and Sidney Bechet. He did not come to Europe with an orchestra that was 100% "made in New Orleans". So one has to face the facts, (just as the half empty halls on Sunday 23 September have shown), Kid Ory did not seem to have the same success as these two other pioneers. Does this mean that New Orleans Jazz has lost its audience? Or rather was it Kid Ory's orchestra itself that failed to satisfy?

Maxim Saury: Kid Ory's orchestra may have disappointed many people, but what these people did not understand was that they faced a true New Orleans orchestra playing typically that very style. They did not understand that any of these musicians pretended to be a soloist, their real value being in the quality of the ensembles. I think this is what is most typical of New Orleans music. As Albert Nicholas put it 'This is an orchestra, six musicians playing together. It is not an orchestra made of six individuals, each one playing without taking any notice of what the others are playing.

Charles Delaunay: Do you think Kid Ory's orchestra is in any way close to the one he led in 1916 in New Orleans, or the one King Oliver had at Lincoln Gardens, or even Claude Luter's band when he was strictly New Orleans?

Kurt Moh: To quote Albert Nicholas again, we asked him if Louis Armstrong's orchestra played New Orleans style, and he answered, 'Louis stopped playing New Orleans style a long time ago, whereas one the few orchestras still playing in the old way is Kid Ory's.

Charles Delaunay: This does not answer my question. Do you think the orchestra we heard is in the same class as the great New Orleans orchestras from 30 or 40 years back?

Kurt Mohr: This is very difficult to say. In New Orleans there were no more than a couple of true jazz orchestras at that time, Ory's included. What's more, they did not leave any recordings.

Mowgli: If you're asking me whether Kid Ory's band stands for pure tradition of New Orleans style, I would answer no. King Oliver's orchestra, without even to mention such men as Tommy Ladnier, Freddy Keppard, George Mitchell, etc... , had worthy individuals, whereas the musicians in Kid Ory's orchestra, who are relatively unknowns, deserve to remain unknowns.

Kurt Mohr: Let us not mix the two notions,the musician's authenticity with class.

Mowgli: There again, I have mixed feelings. For instance, I think that the trumpet player does not play the New Orleans style of ensemble lead. He does not play on the beat, and, when playing melodies, plays cantabile. I know I've been told there were New Orleans trumpet players who played cantabile, maybe so, but none of those I have heard on records from the great era, Ladnier, Keppard, Jabbo Smith, Punch Miller, George Mitchell and others do. It was something else. It was not only a matter of class, but style too, they led the ensembles.

Kurt Mohr: Back to the question, let's not forget that from 1912 to 1916, Kid Ory's orchestra would only play picnics, not clubs.

Maxim Saury: This would be close to George Lewis' current orchestra who's have refused to play club dates for years.

Charles Delaunay: The part Kid Ory plays in an orchestra does not allow him to shine as a soloist such as Louis Armstrong or Sidney Bechet. Ory is mainly an ensemble musician. Could this be the cause for the disappointment?

Mowgli: It is a point that Kid ory has been one of the best ensemble trombone player ever. There have not been many mind you, Dutrey, Charlie Irvis, and maybe a few others. But another point is that, does Kid Ory still play as he used to? I think he has stripped his style down. The way he plays now is much more compact, more condensed. The notes are coming right where they belong. He would not be misplaced beside Armstrong or Bechet. It is a fact that he has played better in the past, alongside Jelly Roll Morton for instance, but I find he swings more when he takes a solo. One cannot call him a soloist as he does not make any melodic developments. He does not build a phrase, he blows notes around the theme, but that does not make him a soloist.

André Clergeat: It seems to me that you have said it all, so I will only make one comment. I think we all agree that jazz is foremost swing. Now, with Kid Ory's orchestra it is a total disappointment. The music just does not swing, at least in the way that I hear it. Panassié and I clearly do not share the same conception as he writes, 'Kid Ory and his men have given the French audience what they too rarely can hear, pure jazz, without any hoity toity empty research, nor any compromising. True, honest, sound, merry, inspired, swinging jazz like we should hear more often!'To tell the truth, the only moments when I found some musical contentment were in Alvin Alcorn's few solos,the trumpet player that some criticize for not being New Orleans.

Maxim Saury : I did not find any thing of interest in any of the solos, but I did like the ensembles. The ensemble work fully satisfied me, and have satisfied others, such as Albert Nicholas, for one.

Participants:

Charles Delaunay, well known French Jazz critic and producer, manager of Jazz Hot.

Maxim Saury, French clarinet player and band leader, played with Sammy Price, Barney Bigard and Teddy Wilson.

Kurt Mohr, Swiss Jazz critic.

Mowgli (real name Maurice Jospin), French trombone player and band leader ; played with Claude Luter's orchestra and with Sidney Bechet, Lee Collins, Mezz Mezzrow, and Zutty Singleton.

André Clergeat : French Jazz critic, editor of Jazz Hot.

Translation by Louis Iosub and Sid Bailey.